Jathi/Varna

" स्वाभाविको ब्राम्हणादिः शमाद्यैरेव भिद्यते । योनिभेदकृतो भेदो ज्ञेय औपधिकस्तवयम् । विष्णुभक्तिश्चानुगता सर्ववर्णेषु विस्पतिम् । आरभ्य हीयतेऽथापि भेदः स्वाभाविकस्ततः ॥

• certain pseudo scholars asked me to interprete these verses .. the pseudo scholars not knwing difference between svabhaav and svaabhavik ,,bheda .. made a high clims about scholarly discourse which interpreted above verses to mean ... jati and varna of the person are two different entities ... and varna is superior to jaati ..and quoted above verse ...! let us examine these claims and proper translations and views of Madhvacharya and Rayaru etc on these verses ... the verse is from NAARDIYA PURANA ..
• we shall delve on the issue all day long and more so in evening ,..
• yes ....
• my first question to scholars if they are watching .. reading .. is there any reference to varna being separate from birth ...in the abive verses .. if so which word depicts that either through inference or by grammar
• that need not be given to those who do not understand grammar or importance of interpretations Of the work .. their dogma to stick to one persons interpretation under the blind belief that he may not go against any previous scholars does not qualify them to debate ... DEBATE is for enhancement of knwoledge not for saying MY FAITH is indispensable even if GOD says its not so ! where is question of debating with foolhardy
• does a donkey understand smell of jasmine !
• so who will be at fault if one places jasmine .. the donkey for not understanding its beauty or the one who is placing before donkey ...
• so do not place shreshta jasmine like verses
• BUt there are so many jignaysu who need to know exactly what this verse says .. so a fresh discussion here
• this verse is quoted by MADHWAacharya as pramaa for his interpretation of chaturvarnam maya krutam of BHAVADGEETA shloka ..
• acharya says .. satvika is bramhana satvika rajas is kshatriya and rajas tamas is vaishya .. and tamas is shudra ... these are one type of differentiation based on gunas .. and second type is by karma ie the eexhibition of sham dama etc ..
• MADHWACHARYA speaks about daurlabhya sulabhatven exists a .. difference .. that means .. availability of satvika is sulabh among bramhana .. and durlabha among others
• all the while sham dama etc are found in all the four castes .. but again it will be more in BRAHANAs ...
• finally SAGE NARDA says .. though these distinctions exist the one with gunas ie satvika etc are known through quantity ie amount present in nature ..but is not INSTRUMENTAL ... and that which is differentiated by birth .. is instrumental ..
• finally VISHNU BHAKTI is only parameter to govern amount of satvikta ... and SATVIKA means VISHNU BHAKTA .. RAJAs means one who is comfused and TAMAS means one who is blind to Vishnu bhakti
• NOW some scholars interprete this as there is something called varna which is different from jati that comes from birth .. [ till here its okay ] what is objectionable is ... this VARNA is more important and is the criteria for distinction ... and hence DHARMA SHASTRA when it talks about various work allocation based on jati .. it is the varna nd NOT the jati ... ..
• This interpretation leads to 1> diosrespect towards dharma shastra 2> creates chaos .. 3> creates sanshay as to when we see a bramhan should we do namaskaara or should we wait till someone comes and clarifies no he is bRAMHANA and also his VRAN is bramhan
• finally WHO WILL DECIDE WHOSE VARNA IS WHAT ?
• The pseudo scholars fail to answer this yet say VARNA is important .. CONSEQUENCE THEY DO not find anything wrong with mletchas studying vedas and learning from mletchas ..
• NOW WHY AT AL ARE WE DISCUSSING THIS ?
• WE have to discuss this because KRSIHNA IN GEETA says do not harbour desire ...
• KRSIHNA also says do KARMA
• WHICH KARMA ? KARMA that pleases ME [ KRSIHNA ]
• sameer anything to ask ?
• WHAT PLEASES KRISHNA ... it is very clear IF I DO anything that I like as my profession ,.. it will only be driven by desire ... ie to make money or to earn fame or to earn pleasures .. .. This will not please KRISHNA ... then what pleases HIM .. SWADHARMA .. what is SWADHARMA ?
• Now I am a ardent KRSIHNA BHAKTA I do not want to transgress what LORD has said .. but I am in confusion WHAT should I do .. in my ignorance If I attempt anything I feel I am driven by desire ,,, Am I doing Right .. CAN i persue this ... DO I HAVE FREEDOM to pursue anything I do .. I CAN FIGHT WELL CAN I tAKE up KSHATRIYA JOB .. even though I am BRAMHANA ... there is lot of fame in Being NATA [ nata is a caste ] .. I have passion for acting .. should I GO and do that ? will KRSIHNA BE PLEASED ...
• who will answer these .. my passion rules paramount or my circumstances rule paramount or my nature ie i can fight .. or my BIRTH is PARAMOUNT in pleasing KRISHNA ..
• TAKE RAYARU ,.... they are DEVA YONI they have natural ability to regulate ie KSHATRIYA qualities .. so when they were KSHATRIYAS they fought war ... when born as BRAMHANA they did SHASTRA ADHYAYANA .. so DID they look at INETRNAL SO CALLED VARNA or BIRTH to carry out their KARMA ?
• In nutshell the question is important in the backdrop that KARMA has to be performed as per SWADHARMA .. this is determined by chaturvarna vyavastha ... the word VARNA pseudo scholars depicts as not the one got by BIRTH ... but RAYARU MADHWACHARYA SRIPADRAYARU all have followed birth ... when they were kshtriyas in previous birth they did RAJYA PARIPALANA and when they were BRAMHANAS in KALIYUGA they did GNYana SAMPADANA ..
• SO varna for them was BIRTH or something ABSTRACT ?
• DOES this not apply to US ?
• FOR THIS pseudo scholars say one has to follow JATI only but VARNA is shershtha and we still maintain varna != jATI ....
• Okay if that be the case .. what is the purpose of the VARNA being shreshtha?
• THERE seems no purpose except in indulging so as to say OH BRAMHAN can be a tamas .. and there can be a GREAT SCHOLAR all knowing in a mletcha ... FOR this scholar say he saw a great PALMIST doing sashtang namaskara to a MLETCHA after sensing he was a yati in his past birth
• ISnt it against neeti to do namaskaar to a heen yoni ... [ this reduces the longevity of the person ] but the scholar shows this a s agreat karma and vihit karma ...
• how dastradly a misinterpretaion of neeti dharma and lokvyahavahaar .. did VYASARAYA ever do namaskaar ato KANAKA DASA ?
• DO we not do NAMASKAARA to a YATI even if he is younger to us because he is ashram shreshta ... does YATI do NAMASKAARA to a scholar ? why not a great scholar may be of great varna nd yati of heen avarna so does he not prostarte ? is thera ny such tradition ? NO ... why .. because it is against DHARMA ... only jati is seen in doding NAMASKAARA and nowhere there is a drashtanta that varna has been identified and done NAMASKAARA
• EVEN though smaller in TARTAMYA .. MADWACHARYA did namaskaara to his MASTER who was mere mortal and very less to MADHWACHARYA why ? varna could have been seen and set example
• THERE is no example in history of having seen varna intrinsic and given UPANAYANA or sanskaara .. PSEUDO SHOLARS out of ther ignorance CITE VEDVYASA as a anamoly who had been granted SCHOLARLY position even though born to a lower women .. because HE established extraordinary brilliance ?
• THESE is sheer NONSENSE .. VEDVYASA was acknowledged BRAMHANA all through .....
• absolutely right .... INFACT HRISHIKESH went one step ahead and asked ,,, The same YUDHISTHIR was accorded Throne and VIDURA who is also YAMA is accorded a nominal post not even acknowledged as DWIJA
• IF varna were true BOTH are same SOUL ..so same VARNA so same treatment should have been meted
• BUT because jati differed , one is dwija YUDHISTHIR with vedadhikaara and other VIDURA PARASVA without vedadhikara .. VIDURA says to DHritarashtra I cannot tell you more as You are kshatriy and I am non dwija .. in MAhabharta ... why if varna were true VIDURA SHOUDL HAVE GVEN MORE SERMON
• RS according Pseudo scholars VARNA theory leads to perfect society .. which EVEN LORD KRISHNA did not but they are trying to bring by propagation ?
• NOW for a moment let us assume varna theory is correct ... who will decide whose VARN ais what ?
• ther wil be chaos ...
• So purpose of this theory is to create chaos or there is no any fruitful purpose .. in both cases this theory has no ground .and cannot qualify as dharma to be propagated in SOCIETY ..
• SO why is it being propagated ?
• that is chaos ..
• yes shambhook episode is also laring
• EKLAVYa was born to KSHATRYA father .. and shudra mother .. yet he was not given kingdom .. but was amde king of NISHADs ..Ekalavya exhibited better skills than ARJUN ... even then he was not accepted into KSATRIYA FOLD why ? was not demonstartion better than ARJUN enough for VARNA TO SHOW UP
• SO what is actual interpretation of the vERSE ?
• in one perspective ,. the verse is speaking about ..SATVIKA etc guna ..which may be present in all and it also speaks about shama dama etc qualities which may also be present in all
• what is SATVIK here .. VISHNU BHAKTA is only SATVIK ..shama dama us secondary ..
• SO if a VISHNU BHAKTA is chandala .. he is SATVIKA .. agreed .. he should be treated SATVIKALLY .. is dharma shastra ...BUT does THAT MEAN give VEDADHIKAAR to him?
• DHARMA SHASTRA prohibits but scholars of VARNA advocates justify preaching vedas ! here is the major difference
• if advocates of varna say okay there are satvikas in shudra chandaaldi and they must be treated and honoured ,, it is welcome .. and if they say a bramhana who is tamas is nature should be discarded .. even this is acceptable .. but while doing so .. if one says take upadesha from this chandaala he seems to knowledged ... he was yati in previous janma ... THIS IS AGAINST DHARAM !
• while KANAKA DASARU is respectable to us .. we sing his kritis .. butdid VYASARAYA ALLOW HIM TO DO KRISHNA POOJA IN UDUPI as he was more better cadidate ?
• NO according to them MADHWA raya were all inacapable of moulding society these new social engineers want to do something they could NOT
• while it can be agreed upon that verse speaks of having satvikas in shudra yoni .. but it does not soeak of swadharama on that basis of sighting such satvika nature .. just becaus esatvik means bramhana so shudra becomes bramhan ... shudra being satvka becomes eligible for VISHNU aradhan how ?
• BY serving trivarna ... a tamas shudra will not serve trivarna ... isnt that seen
• satvikta of shudra is seen by his seva bhava only or vedadhyayan acapability ?
• similarly a bramhana if he is tamas has anyone seen him doing menial work .. or can anybody force himto do ?
• So saying the verse speaks of some abstract vara which cannot be detrmined and shuld be applied to swadharma is it right or was it created for political purpose z?
• if there is aversion to follow VEDIC varnashram dharma according to birth then why at all follow it .. why bring in varna ... just follow svechchachara .,, why give stamp to svechchachara by giving colour to it ...varna
• BUT swamijis of udupi matha seem to be agreeing with IT .. so there are hoards of herds following it ... and herds have good common sense too
• but that is diplomacy .. it is acceptable .. BUT atleast MADHWAS should be properly educated
• hathi ke dikhane ke daat .,. if Dr B is diplomatic ,, then it is appreciable fact .. truth sould be propagated atleast internally
• swadharma as it is a extinct concept ...
• if misinterpreted tommorrow people will say we wiill do KRSIHNA POOJA we are uchhc varna
• and You all sit on the ground even though jati is B varna is C so listen to what we say .. sab MAYA hai ..
• next your own books will be distorted and shown even MADHWARAYA also meant same
• such hienous consequences ..is result of such VARNAVADA
• Vijay Jain birth means caste .. caste is universal .. even christians muslims have caste .. even americans have caste ..so swadharma is according to caste
• it is fixed ... its easy and natural to follow once caste dharma .. DHARMA is duty not FAITH .. jain is FAITH
• YOU SHOULD follow the work allocated to agarwals and do vsihnu aradhna without doing nava vidha dwesha
• birth and sanskaara decides jati
• one should be born to bramhan parents and should have bramhan upanayana then one can be called as bramhana
• the forum / gathering where there are no lovers of truth should not be attended
• it reduces ayushya
• we will start ew thread for nava vidh dwesha
• one loses jati by doing any act that is considered as PATAK .. and once one become PATIT withoiut prayaschitta one does not reagin jati
• 18th chapter gives details about shama dama di yes ..
• see prayaschitta is done by two people ... one who has extreme paschattap a two one who has been stripped of priviliges in society ..
• second is not seen today .. so question of prayaschitta is ruled out ..
• intercaste marraiges happen only when castes exist .. where is caste today ... no one does sanskaara ..
• for other castes their name is pride thats all ..
• for bramhana progeny is dear .. so intercaste has died down .. else my great grandfather had married many woman .. they all had offsprings .. upanayana he gave to only bramhanas .. rest were serving the others .. that discipline is seen till date in the lineage of his sudra wife .. they are still working in ancestral house .as personal assistants to bramhin offsprings .... nobody claimed property .. THIS CANNOT BE POSSIBLE now ..
• if sanskaara is missing in womens lineage then by intercaste only new types of mletchas will begot as offsprings .. isnt that dangerous to swadharma
• yes in itercaste marraiges .. If bramhi boy is amrrying bramhin girl then they tie each others ends of vastr shalya and pallu and tke sath phere .. if it kshatriya girl then a sword is given to catch ... for vaishya a gold rod .. for sudra a stick ,..
• now that is intercaste marraige ,,
• eye contact is marraige for bramhanas ..... panigrahan catching hands is marraige for Kshatriya .... saptapadi for vaishya and sutrabandhan for shudras
• will continue in evening
• What is that exact yaksha prashna ? oh ! maharaaj ! what registers Bramhanya siddhi ,.... kula ...acharana ...vedadhyayan or by jnanarjana ?
• Yudhisthir answers Oh YAksha ! bramhanya doesnt come by either swadhyaya vidya ... the significator of BRamhanya chief only by sadaachar [ acharane ] ... 2. Bramhana should put efforts to become sadaachari ..... sadaachar could be less but that doesnt matter but leaving it all together will make a bramhana as dead ...3> one who does paath pravachan adhyayan and shastra pravachan but if he is vyasani [ addict ] then he is a fool ,., only one who is sadaachari is pandit ......4> the bramhana who has studied 4 vedas if he is durachari he is lesser than sudra ... but one who is immersed in AGNIHOTRA and INDRIYA NIGRAHA is BRAMHANA ...
• In the Above answer YUDHISTHIR upholds birth as primary reason for a BRAMHANA and sadachaar as the one that would guard that BRAMHANATVA .... by being AGNIHOTRI and INDRIYA NIGRAHA his BRAMHANATVA is protected else if he is durachaari then he loses his BRAMHANATVA ... even if he is doing PRAVACHANA if he is not sadachaari then he is vyasani and moorkha ...
• NOWHERE the answer reflects that anyone [ irrespective of birth ] if he displays sadachaar he can be termed BRAMHANA ! that will be wrong interpretation
• BECAUSE in the same YAKSHA PRASHNA ... yaksha asks .. WHAT IS THAT which RISHIS declare as STHIRYA ?
• Yudhisthir answers - the FIRM RESOLVE [ dhardya ] to remain immersed in VARNAASHRAMochit SWADHARMA is called as STHAIRYA ...
• that means a Varnaashrama dharma is advocated on the basis of birth and hence the RESOLVE [ dhardya] to remian engaged in it ... if one is alwasy in doubt as to what his SWADHARAMA [ due to VARNA ? ] where will be DHARDY .. if it isbased on jati then dhardya is there so does sthairya !
• There is one more yaksha prashna which goes supplementary /. ayksha asks - WHO is a PANDIT ? answer - one who knows various DHARMAs is only PANDIT !
• and in the discussion we saw DHARA SHASTRA is sidelined and only single line quotes were being adhered to that shows there is no PANDITYA
• dharma shastra 'typo'
• finally in the same yaksha prashna YAKSHA ASKS - " what is uttama marga ?"
• Yudhisthir says - " THe best path [ to lead life ] is not decided by TARKA logic ......the vedas which are storehouse of jnana/ knowledge is interpreted by each in variety of ways ... the rishi who is well versed in vedas even his words [ intepretations ] are not accepted by one and all universally ... the DHArma tatva is very secretive / THAt is why . one must follow ONLY THE PATH THAT SAJJANAS HAVE TREADED ,, ONLY THAT PATH IS UTTAMA MARGA
• that means tradition is uttama marga ... WHich TRADITION [ PARMAPARA } the tradition set by APAROXA GYANIS .... nowhere APAROXA GYANIS HAVE SUPERCEDED JATI BY VARNA ... matter rests there
• YUDHISTHIR says BY SWADHYAYA Bramhana achieves Devatva ...again Yudhisthir says SWADHYAYA itself cannot be reason for Bramhantva siddhi ! how to reconcile this ?
• While sadachaar is the only thing which entitles s a bramhan being able to be rightfully called as bramhana .... and through Agnihotra he maintains it .... an swadhyaya raises him to the level of devatva
• devatva means ability to display the understanding of play of creation
• bramhanya siddhi means to be eligible to be called as BRAMHANA
• Swadhyaya is not self study it means shastra vimarsha
• sandhya and agnihotra are prerequisites but shama dama becomes even more important
• what is shama and what is dama ?
• YUDHISTHIR SAYS " shama [ not kshama ] is manasshanti
• manas nigrha is dama
• yes what leads to success is important //
• indriya nigraha is synonym for dhairya
• YAMA NIYAMA ASANA and then PRANYAMA
• what is yama niyama ?
• ahimsa satya asteya brahacharya aparigrha are yama
• shauch tapah tushti swadhayaya hari pooja etc are niyama
• kindly define individual aspects of yama .... and post the elaborate meaning as understood by you all ..
• I will take abreak and resume later
• That which leads to samsaara is KAAMA ......
• NOT knwoing correct dharma in a situation is MOHA
• what leads to conclusion that this belongs to us and this not ... DHARMA ...not knowing that leads us to make wrong decision yes what is not ours is ours
• there may be statements and verses in shastras to the effect that if a BRAMHANA does not perform his duties well than he is worst than sudra ... BUt is there a single sentence suggesting that sudra performing his duties welll is better than BRAMHANA ?
• to get an award a secular outlook shoudl be given ... so by saying SUDRA is better than bramhna they become secular .. a new varna vaada .. this is classic appeasement policy .. just put a stamp shreegalu said so ..
• In the whole shloka there is no reference to VARNA nor swabhava ,.. it only mentions the division is swabhavi bheda ..
• perhaps karna had no varna
• No need to quote elsewhere ... they will only say PAPA ne toh aisa nahi sikhaya [ arey bhai savere se shaam mere PAPA aise the Mere PAAPA waise the sunsun ke thak jate hain ... aur ek agar aisa bola toh 22 ways hai hi ]
• apad dharma is again one coming out of dharma shastra .. it is obviously to deha only ! where is the confusion ?
• even in apaddharam Bramha does not resort to sudra vratti ...
• July 7, 2012 at 12:45am
• I thought admin in the group would be more interested in propagating truth .. rather in personal chat he said , our views dont interest them [ he would not place weightage to it ] as they take teertha from "SHANKHA " only , shnakha being swamiji ...
• so it seems they are under impression nothing in this world is conclusive ... only swamiji's words are conclusive ...debates fetches no knowledge ... [ I doubt if swamiji's said so ]
• when pointed out that the DEFINITION of their SHANKHA shoud not be limited to a person but SRIMADANAND teerhtha's SHASTRAS and RAYARu's view as well ...
• THE gentleman termed me as half knwoledged and SELF ASSUMED crusader and TORCH bearer of MADHWA SIDHDANTA .. and hiding behind a FAKE PROFILE ...
• the group runs a FB page .. why .. ? isnt it to propagate the MAdhwaraya philosophy .... then isnt that self assumed ? has anybody given then exclusive license to be TORCH BEARER ...HAS swwmiji asked them t start the group and said SEE we are the only entitled licensed authorised PROPAGATORS of MADHWA philosophy ? all others are self assumed .... I didnt see any info on MADWA valabhs profile .. as to who he is either ... does that make a FAke profile .. BUT when I said this Admin made truce saying ... it likes my writings .. and its time to rethink ..
• TANTRAsara translation by HIM is full of mistakes .. especially the HARi rupas inside suhumna etc .. is not at all clear .. nor conclusive .. similarly with number of petals the translation gives faulty numbers of petals without refereing to Other works
• If someone does sadhna with the dhyana of faulty chakras not only will he get diseases but will be subjeted to vipareeta gyana and anya anartha ...
• IF someone wants to know WHAT I AM SAYING IS TRUTH OR NOT .. FOLLOW translation of TSS by Dr ,.. and practse chakra meditation .. and see in few days one will become obese ..
• is your reference is MANYUSUKTA ...
• o adi shankar in bramhan jati ..
• pseudo scholars are those scholars of the present who interpret MADHWACHARYAS writings solely on their own independently .. without taking shelter of the commentaries and notes of scores of thought process contributed by the aproxa gyaanis in the lineage of MADHWACHARYA ... [ the sole aim of pseudo scholar is to establish himself as scholar of equivalent calibre as of JAYATEERTHARU RAYARu and not subservient to them ... ] aim of pseudo scholar seems to be non challant attempt to bring a fresh wave of thought and research in already established notions , so that he gets credit of having done research and established newly found truths hitherto unknown .. ] by doing so he feels he has resurrected the society and given it a new lease of life
• DOnkeys was not a reference to scholars ... it was reference to those who do vitanda and refuse to see the pramaana under the dogma that it does not fit into the scheme of things as learnt by them ... just as donkeys when given jasmine to smell abhor it .... vitanda vaadi abhors pramaana ...... this was reference to famous proverb in telugu ... "gadade mundu malle puvu /"
• NOw to remove misconception you have harboured .. ther is no my interpretation .here ... what is written by greats and what Sage NARADA intends and what MADHWACHARYA has given in BHashya we are discussing it ... //// I do not see any refernce to varna as different from jati in the verse ... that is the point of discussion .... if you have some valuable contribution on the verse please share it with us ... ..
• Also from your yard stick Jayatirtharu and Vadirajaru are pseudo scholars, agreed?
• JAyateertharu and Vadirajaru have never diverted from their predecessors ,. it is again a pseudo scholars who say that there is deviation
• July 7, 2012 at 6:52am
• July 7, 2012 at 6:53am
• But is the line not about jaati ... ? our contention is jaati is by birth so any refernce to division of bramhaadi refers to birth .. so when the word bramhan occurs it obviously refers to jaati is specific mention jati required
• Well jayateertharu differing from padmanabhteertharu is again views of present day scholars
• July 7, 2012 at 6:56am
• there enhancements to what padmanabhteertharu might have given a precise refrence ..but there is no diaboloical disagreements .. as we have seen in present varn ajaati discussion
• NW since you have opened this argument ... CAN you please let us know your view .. when the WORD BRAMHANA occurs in a verse it refers to jaati or anything else ? is any specific mention of jaati required
• July 7, 2012 at 6:58am
• July 7, 2012 at 7:01am
• BUt why do you see the difference ... when one writes commentray on athing which has been commented by the gurus .. only those which requires enhancement is mentioned .. not repeated .. when padnabhteertharu has already said about the place ....of delivery JAyateertharu explains time of delivery i call it enhancement not contradcition .. because then reading both becomes fruitful
• Srimadacharya doesnt say jaati and varna as different ... that is the difference ... you are fircing interretation on SRIMADANDATEERTA ... wheras varna is always used interchangeably with jaati in shastras
• show me exclsuively a verse where it is mentioned that varna does not mean jaati
• July 7, 2012 at 7:14am
• let me show bhashya verse ... to you
• satviko bramhanah | satvikrajasaH kshatriyah rajastamas vaishya | tamasah shudra | iti gunavibhagah ,.
• now clearly guna is not varna
• if MADHWACHARYA meant varna .. he would have written iti varavibhaga
• Why? Care to explain?
• now he goes on to write ... karmavibhagastu "shamadamaaH ityaadi vakshyate | .. now shamadamma is karma vibhga .. what constitutes karma ?
• when varna is jaati [ which indeed is ] , then bramhaandi becomes imperative by birth and swdharma can be easily followed based on birth .... and then sativikaadi guna is found in bahulya and sulabha ... [ as explains in tataprya ] among bramhanas is truth and pratyaksha pramaana
• MADWACHARYA again in GEETA TATPARYA says ...
• Why? Care to explain?
• VARNA was different jaati ,,,, there was no separate mention that satvika aiva vaishnava ...
• that mention as seaparte would not have been neceessary
• VAISHNAVA SATVKA eva TAMASA eva chapare ..
• here if varna were SATVIKA TAMASA . then sudra obviously becomes tamasa and hari dweshi ..
• because in tatparya MADHWACHARYA by saying TAMASA eva chapare .. brands tamas as AVAISHNAVA ..
• NOW to bring ANAMOLY into system MADHWACHARYA says .. DAURLABHYASulabhatvena teshaam varnadibhinnaa
• what is vranadibhinna ...
• You are interpreting as .. jati ///
• sorry type varnadibhinnata
• the bhinnata is due to daurlabhyam and sulabhatva that is availablity of sativikadi guna in bramhanadi varna
• now brahanaadi varna is still varna vibhaktash ch ie yonibhedakrut
• NOw MADHWACHARYA backs his statement by NARADIYA vachan .. which says satvika etc is natural distinction ..and shamadamadi is another distinction .. first is natural .. and second is instrumental by birth ....
• and MADHWACHARYA says satvika adi is natural [ interchanged with with ] sulabhatva in bramhana varna ....
• kindly see MADHWACHARYA explicitly says birth is varna
• our most important contention is ... by saying varna as jaati we facilitate the rder in system ie easeness to choose the swadharma ... the other interpretation gives chaos ... in society , as one will not be able to know [ if varna were different , what ones varna is ] and not be able to know swadharama
• July 7, 2012 at 12:02pm
• not only appeasement .., its schema to safeguard oneself , but there are ways for it ...twostig MADHWARAYA's statement is unfortunate /// even Purandar dasaru faced difficult situation /.. i some land he was forced to accept that he should declare that one can eat if invited by "turkaru "
• DASARU intelleigently said ... turu karu karadare ondabahudu ./// people went back happily ... then every one asked what is this dasaru /// dasaru said ... turu means bramhana ... karu means go ...[ alternatively devatas ] if they invite one can go
• its not that they dont understand .. they very well understand ... what is importance of varnaashrama dharma ...
• And thanks for the advice.
• WHoever we have met in the past trying to debate on the SHLOKA of Geeta ... His arguments were .. SHRi SWAMIJI has written a book and there it is written jati and verna are different and hence MADHWACHARYA says SO ... there is no explaining on point ... and what is written in english is intelligible because they dont understand anything beyond what has been translated for them in geeta prasthaan ..
• COULD ANYONE PONT OUT TO THEM if varna were diffrent ...THEN SHUDRA VARNA is TAMAS .. and AVAISHNAV .. does that mean all TAMOYOGYA are of SHUDRA VARNA ... BUT i remember The DISCOURSE WHERE IT IS SAID RAKSHAS HAVE NO VARNA .. then WHO IS TAMOYOGAYA AVAISHNAV ?
• rakshas why will they adhere to varnashram dharma ,...
• BUT when they claim there is varna intrinsic .. and then what is the position .. tamasa shudra ... which is explicitly mentioned ..
• vyavaste is applicable to jIvas of Rajasic-Sathvik category..' then where is tamas varna ?
• It seems bannanje uncle is very upset ,, otherwise why so much rally ... ..but noone is using anumaan agaama etc .. why ?
• ACTUALLY after heated debate ... consience is rising .. people are unable to reconcile .. they are themselves in sanshaya now ... but that is good devlopment
• MAMU bahut dil pe lilya
• actually i will tell you where the confusion is ,...
• geeta tatpary - सत्वसत्वाधिकरजोरजोभिस्तमसा तथा । वर्णा विभक्ताश्चत्वारः सात्विका एव वैश्णवाः ॥ करमविभागम शमदम इत्यादिना वक्ष्यते ।
• first line speaks of satvik satvikadhikoraj rajtamo varNa is divided into four
• satvik satvadhikrajo rajas tamas ..
• this definition is in PARASHAR snruti too
• there PARASHAR defines it as uttam madhyam udaseen and adham
• he defines characteristics .. too
• NOW MADWACHARYA has used satvika etc in first line .. and then varna are classified into four and sativika is vaishnava ///
• so the interpretation what [ varnavaada scholars ] have said varna is different it is satvika etc ..
• so they have inetrpreted as varna vibhaga four .. and karma vibhaga based on " shama dama etc '
• so there is no reference to birth at all
• varna used here is not from birth
• how simple is MADHWACHARYAs verses isnt it
• but then when he says daurlabhyasulabhatvena ... it becomes imperative he is speaking of classification of birth only .. because how come satvika is sulabha available in BRAMHANA .... if SATVIKA were BRAMHAN what is the necessity to use SULABHAtvena ... that satvika is avilaiable in abundance in bramhanas .. so who is bramhana ... one by birth .. because the verse clearly says SATVIK quality is available in BRAMHANA in abundance [ avialability in shudra is durlabha ] /// so bramhana becomes synonymous with jati ..
• I have posted in previosu post SRT divisions .. where does RAJ sat ? starts from
• HARi the explanatio is wonderful
• There are many verses in MANUSMRITI which clearly uses the word Jati as bramahanadi .. etc .. and in determining various dharma ...
• Similarly PARAHARA rishi explains Satwadi guna to MAtireya .. he says Satva as uttama rajas as madhyama . tamas as adhama and gunasaamya a udaaseen ... He goes on to explin UTTAMA engaes in SHAMADAMA shuchi tapas ..shanti alobhah satyavaditvam ....
• madhyam engages in shaurya teja dhruti yuddhe ch apaypalayanam sadhuna rakshanam rajoadhika
• adhama lobhi astayavaadi jadhyam alasyam sevakarmapatutvam guna ete tamoadhike
• krushkarmani [ agriculture ] vanijye patutvam pashupalane satyasatyaprabhashitam these are qualities of udaseen
• Then PARASHARA says veerya and kshetra are important determining these qualities ...
• and he says KAAL purush craetes them as UTAMA comes from his head , MADHYAm from arms and chest ... Udaseen from janghadwayam ... and ADHAMA from his feet
• Finally PARASHARA says // evam gunavashadeva kaalbhedah prajaayate | JAATIBHEDASU tadjaayateatra charaachare ||
• PARASHAR says these gunas form the basis of the JAATI
• among all craetures in world
• AMARKOSHA in explaining the word varna says varna is bramhana etc .. and while explaining KShatriya as RAjabeeji raaj vanshi bijyastu kulsambhava .. vansha is santati ,kuam gotral
• IS there any doubt left after all this ,, that varna is jaati ...
• Primary are only four ... rest are derivatives of four
• and in common parlance .. where there is upanayan adhikaara , even the intermixed caste is considered under trivarnika .. and others which are not eligible are knwon as sudras ... vedabahya
• jaati is still bramhana only .. the soul is tamoyogya
• See Duryodhan he was kshatriya ...and remained kshatriya ... even his veerya was considered kshatriya as his daughter was acceoted by Krishna as daughter in law
• similarly jarasandha did pandava not marry his daughter .. that means he was kshatriya .. even though not a good person ..
• he was allowed to do yaga yagnya
• there should be no confusions on this at all ... JATI is by birth and sanskaara only ...
• There is no example in any tradition from treta to dwapara to RAyaru where varn has been seen to allocate swadharma ... ... while absolute importance has been given to birth and sanskaara ..
• BHEEMSEN explicitly calls KARNA a suta and ineligible ti fight with ARJUNA a kshatriya ... while Bheemsena is all knowing , an objection is raised , how bheemsena even though knwoing karn is son of kunti and kshatriya still call him suta ... and why did he deter him ...which vyakhyanas clear that Bheemsena did not err as Karna had suta sanskara he is ineligible just like vratya bramhan is ineligible
• In satyayuga there will be only four jati only .. no intermixing ...
• No even if BRAMHANA is evil if he is established in sandhya [ RAVANA] he is worthy of respect as VISHNU sannidhan will be there
• why does INDRA get BRAMHAHATYA DOSHA by killing Vrutrasur .. he could have said oh he was not bramhana at all he was rakshasa ... thats it matter should have ended ..
• but then EVEN INDRA HAD TO RUN FOR COVER and seek solution to relieve himself ... 2 lakhs ashtakshar japa ..
• if the theory that one who does not have satvik quality is no more bramhan gets nullified in this case of VRUTRASUR
• IF tamas vrutrasur was not bramhana then why did BRAHAHATYA DOSHA chase INDRA ?
• NArsimha purana says astakshar
• DRONA had already left the body
• See if KSHATRIYA ceased to be a KSHATRIYA by being torturous or anti GOD ... DURYODHAN displayed this to maximum , yet no one evr said you are now no more Kshatriya and hence GIVE rajya to YUDHISTHIR ! people were discussing only still dharma .. as to who is real ruler of KINGDOM , PANDUPUTRA or DHRITARASHTAR putra ... nowhere was dharm discussed with who is KSHATRIYA VARNA
• No YUGA DHARMA does not HAVe influence ...
• Shankara was bornto a bramhani to a parpurush so says NARAYAN PANDITCHARYA .. did nay one say he is not bramahan
• yes there will be only four castes
• everybody will be doing their dharma properly .. without deviation ..
• your question is unclear .... in satyyuga even slightest deviation from dharma is not done by anyone ... even tamas also does dharm here .. just like in kali even satvik does sin ..
• yes puranas get told again and again
• saptarishis have a longevity till mnavantara .. other rishis live till mahayuga
• there are four bodies ... swaroopa , lingadeha ,aniruddha deha nd sthul deh
• swaroopa and linga deha are without begining ...
• swaroopa does not have end either .. lingadeha has a end
• anirudha deha has a beginning at the creation .. and remains till creation
• sthula deha takes birth and is subjected to death and keeps changing
• satv arajas tamas composition exists in anirudhdha deha
• based on these compositions ...LORD in thebegining of creation creates chaturvarna ... means he gives birth to bramhanas from mouth .. kshatriya through arms and vaishyas through thighs and sudras thriugh feet [ he gives bodies sthula deha to moolpurushas ]
• from these lineages crops up .. ie in these lineages only satvik will get procreated again and again and hence it is BRAMHANa and result is the offsprings will exhibit more sham dama in its sthula deha
• as KAliyuga progresses .. as VISHNU SHANBAG said the bramhanas will not be doing trikaal sandhya etc .. they will do dharmacharane and will be reduced to shudras by sanskaara
• but their genes will still be bramhana only ... and kali is at peak .. there will be only shudra vrutti no varnadharma exhibited ... but as kali -satyayuga sandhi starts .. dharma will increase and bramhanas will again do [ some bramhanas ] varna dharma ... to one such bramhan KALKI will be born .... what does that mean ... the genes will always be BRAMHANA
• Sthula deha is subject to curse and boons .and hence shows analmolies .. but still jati rules paramount and reamins a decisive factor
• KAli lives for whole kalpa but everytime repeats he goes to nitya naraka ... all his mshas go independently to nityanaraka
• yes it is there realisation they are destined for it ...
• before linga bhanga kali's amshas are in nityanaraka wait ofr aother amshas to come and together they go to andhatamas
• sudra can never be lifted to bramhana .in any yuga .... intermixed castes get upliftment
• jatyutkarsha [ upliftment ] is by frequent marraiges into higher castes .. so some xth generation progeny gets uplifted .. second is by tapas over many thousands of years ..
• Viju i think you are also confused
• Y will always remain a PARASHAV [ nishaad ]
• harshal .. firstly its not lower caste , it is higher caste without sanskara ... or lesser ssanskara [ if this is understood half problem vanishes ] .. when caste is high ...nishad is high caste .. adhikara is less ..so genes can be uplifted ... SUDRA by itself cannot be uplifted
• finally if xth generation he is bramhana without doubt
• VIJU .. in TARTAMAYA sandhi .. the calssification of SOULS in maushya category is according to jati nomencalture ...this remains in the mOXA too ... but SOUL by itself is jnanandamaya and VISHNU BHAKTA ... this tartamya coupled with lnga deha composition is peeled with ANIRUDHDHA DEHA which has SAT RAJ TAM ... [ sat equals VISHNU BHAKTI RAJ equals enhances Mishra buddhi udaasenta TAM gives vipareeta gyana ] and combo of sat raj tam in various modes gives rise to classification of castes ..
• KALYANI all the GOOD souls retire as bramhan only even the truna lata etc
• so the soul which is actually a twig ... or creeper also becomes bramhana
• HARSHALA a person not born to BRAMHANa father BRAMHANA Mother cannot become BRAMHAN by sanskaara
• and that is final ... because EVEN though BRAMHANA is as powerful as GOD himself ... when Mother becomes sudra ... VIDURA could not becalled as BRAMHANA nor was given sanskaara
• VIJU ... manushya category has just nomencalture ionly , whereas all muktiyogya souls are satvik because they are vishnu bhaktas and tartamya is based on number of gunas knwon ... this is given manifestation in srushti ... through jati
• If we conveneintly skip nomencalture your problem will be solved
• MUKTIYOGYAS are classified as deva rishi pitru pa manushya
• VIJU SOUL HAS NO VARNA .. it is nomenclature by dasaru to explain tartamya
• SOUL is not created ... it is a set of qualities ...
• these qualities find expression through a body which is composite of SAT RAJ TAM .... now here GOD has laid rules that SAT is corresponding to qualities of MUKTIYOGYAS .... RAJ as NITYASAMSARIS TAM as of MUKTIAYOGYA
• BUt as there is TARTAMYA few more RAJ and TAM are added to differentiate SAT elements ..and thus chaturvarna arise ... and also serves purpose of tartamya
• HARSHALA he will remain a non bramhana
• harshala if either of his parents is sudra ... then he will be SATVIK non dwija ..
• a satvika non dwija is eligible for harikathamrutasar
• harshala if one is born to bramhan afather bramhana mother with sanskara even if he is tamas .. he is bramhan only
• kalyani .. jo intermix hote hain woh bhi bramhano se shaadi arke few genaeration mein bramhan paida karte hain .. isliye bramhan etc maary these intermixed girls ... to keep hope alive
• birth is a poorva janma sanskaara .. it comes by punya .. all non bramhins must try only one thing to improve their birth [ blood count ]
• heamoglobin jyada mangta hain
• pAdmini .. prerequisite is first swajatiya dharmapatni .. then with her permission second one .. no permission no marriage
• mletchas is hopeless cases .. we should leave them to fate .. because mletcha sansarga makes even a bramhan mletcha ..
• its MANU vachan ... no permision no marriage
• KALYANI .. four generation toh aadmi ko pata rehta hai shradhdha se ... agar grndparents jinda hain to seven pata rehta .. that is enough to know
• Jo pati se kare pyaar woh [ prestige ] doosri se kase kare inkaar
• jo sharaddh karte hain unhe teen ka pata chal jata hai [ total char ] ab pichla generation hai kaka kaki toh 5 pata chal gaya .. dada hai toh 6 pata chal gaya . to grandson granddaughter 7th toh pata chal jayega na
• sterile or sterile ..permission is necessary .. otherwise her tears will ake you take a feamle birth
• VIju no permission phir ladki banake shaadi ke baad ladkiyan volti hain chiraaji shaadi toh ho gayi lekin mujhe pata nahi pati pati nahi lagta ....
• KV aadmi female ho to shaadi male se hi hogi . lekin male ko male raas kahan ta hain .. to andar hi andar use zindagi bozh lagti hain har baat ek shoshan kagta hai ...
• jab koi ladki female liberation baat karen toh samajh jana chahiye andar kaun hain
• jab doosri ladki raas aye tab bhi samajh jao kaun hain ...
• aur jab jarrorat nahone par bhi permission ko langh kar doosri ke sath jaye toh .. is baar baari is female [ male ] ki hai .. pati chod deta hai
• thats why when seeta was crying i had no sympathy
• KAUN kisko dukh diya yeh bhi toh hisaab rehna chahiye na
• ab ek aadmi ko doosra aadmi teesri unknow ldki se gaya karke kyon rona chahiye
• SHikhandi ne bheeshma ko maarke khushi toh nahi manaya hoga .. upar jake miyan biwi jokes karte honge .. kya scene tha .. tumhara muh dekhte banta tha
• jaan liya bhi toh 120 saal ki umar mein
• BHAGVAAN ne kahan tum apni maut khud chuna bheeshma ..biwi na kaha chahe kuch bhi ho main toh mrke dikhaungi
• hain main mar jawaan .. upar jake yehi kaha hoga [ ways of GOD are strange ]
• The whole MB says GOD is merciful what is dukh we feel is actually not if we rememeber GOD
• NOw tell why would BHEESHMA fight when shikhandi is before him ... oh ho bhaagvaan chain se yuddhbhumi me yuddh bhi nahi karne deti ,.. yehan bhi khit pit ..
• see the whole story looks different from this angle
• MADhwachary simplifies all the story with past life events ..
• and declares every character knew his past life .. so what was interaction
• Meghnaad becomes dushyasan .. but no interaction with Arjun
• pichle baar kamine mere haath vachanbadd the ..ab makasam main nahi chodunga
• varna jaati no matter its just VISHNU BHAKTAS vs VISHUNU DWESHIS ... free for all
• So that is the nutshell synopsis .. SATVIKA vihsnu bhakta rest all Avaishnavas
• Today again we have seen critical issue needs astrological [ PARASHAR views ] to resolve matters of shastra
• KARNA ha NARAYAN avesha that is why bheemsen left him for 22 time
• shubha ratri
• Now pARASHAR Muni has said what is uttama madhyama guna etc .. HOW to find it in horoscope ? let me see views we shall disect tommorrow
• There was no pain to Surya ...
• Whover has come as a pratiavdi on this topic he has never given any logical proofs .. instead all he had to offer in the name of debate is " somebody said so and so in so book and hence WHat MADHWAcharya meant should be so " ..... The members of this group have actively participated and LOOK at the argumensts presented by the members of this group ... each has has backed his statements with pramana, exmples and quotes and interpretation ..... while debating with other group . Doesnt that speak volumes of the callibre of the members .....
• Father bows to son[ yati ] because there is no longer runanubandha .. YATI bows to Mother because he is still under runanubandh as his exitence would not have been there without mother , and this runa yati cannot repay .. so he is bogged under the weight of upakaara
• all soul get aparoxa gyana only through bramhana births ...after achieving aparoxa , there remains prarbdha to be exhausted .. this prarabdha can make one take various births , without having to struggle hard to get moxa as there is no agami karma lepa
• ji Sir,how do we know that we have not attained aparoxa gyana .Some of us ,like your goodself could be an Aparoxa Jnanin
• Prarabdha karma has to be exhausted .. there is no delay in moxa .. as moxa is only after lings deha bhanga at the end of bramha kalpa .. MOST dearest DEVOTEE IS VAYUDEVA yet his prarabdha is 100 kalpas [ one kapa for VAYU as prarabdha in BRAMHAPADVI
• what is aparoxa ?
• technically what happens to get Bumba darshan ?
• FALL OF PARMACHCHADIKA is aparoxa?
• Then how does JEeva see BIMBA
• so does jeevachchadika gets destroyed first or paramachchaika ?